BrandsTalk

How to effectively communicate your brand via public relations and social media w/Ariel Kramer

June 21, 2022 Brigitte Bojkowszky Season 7 Episode 74
BrandsTalk
How to effectively communicate your brand via public relations and social media w/Ariel Kramer
Show Notes Transcript

"Companies make it more about advertising rather than real content that can be useful and valuable to your target audience"

Tune in to my conversation with Ariel Kramer, an expert in PR and SM strategies.

Ariel provides social media, marketing, and branding advice 

  • for businesses that start out 
  • on what businesses need to pay attention to when cultivating and growing brands over time, across markets.
  • on what to standardize and what to localize in their communication strategies

Ariel also talks about trends that are interesting to follow or event to pick up in order to achieve greater visibility and brand awareness.

Ariel gives us her take on what an authentic personal brand is. Moreover, she tells us how her experience of living and working abroad ties into building her own powerful personal brand.

"It's important to make sure that when you want to build your own brand, you stay true to who you are and what you actually believe in."

Ariel founded her own boutique public relations and marketing firm, Klover Communications in 2013 and served as the Chief Communications Officer of a Nasdaq-listed biotech company. 

Ariel has worked with a variety of companies in various industries across the US, Europe, and Asia helping them raise their visibility and establish a strong presence.


📹 Watch us: https://youtu.be/blHg7zEURow 

Get in touch with Ariel Kramer:

Get in touch with Brigitte Bojkowszky:


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Today, my guest is Ariel Kramer. She is an expert in public relations whose social media marketing and branding for innovative and upcoming tech companies. She founded her own boutique public relations and marketing firm global communications in 2013, and served as the chief communications officer of a NASDAQ listed biotech company. Ariel has worked with a variety of companies in various industries across the US, Europe and Asia, helping them raise their visibility and establish a strong presence in the market. Welcome Ariel Kramer, welcome to brandstalk. Thank you so much for you really honoured to be here today. Yeah, I am honoured to have you on my show today, Ariel, it took a while. Until we got there. We got what the time differences we've gotten sorted out. Yes, exactly. So I'm really glad to have you talk about social media, marketing and PR. But before we do that, could you tell us a little bit about your background about your journey? I know you have lived in Europe, and you speak different languages. And tell us a little bit about your journey and the how you are now? Absolutely. Where do I start? Well, initially, I did not go to school for public relations and marketing, I actually studied to be a lawyer, and quickly realised into interning that this was not a career for me, I was going into family law and found that it's a little hard to emotionally detach from that job. So I actually decided that opportunity to work with a startup who was needing a public relations intern. And I was lucky enough to really, you know, just how to get to get a passion for that early on. And I decided back in 2013, that this was something that I would like to do on my own. And I was actually in the transition of moving from New York to Europe during that time. And it was, it was fantastic. I've it's been quite a journey. It's been obviously a lot of ups and downs, especially in the beginning and adjusting to an entirely new career. But I went from working, you know, in the US trying to build up a brand for myself, to moving to Europe and having to kind of, you know, enter a whole new marketplace, and understand the world of marketing and PR in a completely different way. And helping companies build a global brand. So they are exactly did you live in Europe, I moved to Sweden. So as it as it goes, you know, you meet somebody and you decide that you want to pick up your life and move somewhere else. And I was in my early 20s at the time. So I decided that I was going to pursue the relationship visa for Sweden. And I came over and really tried to you know, hustle, I had, like, you know, kind of a useless degree that I couldn't apply to Sweden in the US. I mean, law is obviously not the same. And so I went ahead and I started, you know, to pursue my business and went to all the networking events I could possibly find in Sweden. I mean, I was even trying to get into events, I was trying to do everything I could to get my foot in the door to get to network, you know, people around the country, from Stockholm to Gothenburg. to Malmo, I was really trying to network as much as I could in the international communities to make my presence known. And obviously just to try to, you know, get my foot in the door to different companies that can maybe utilise my services. Exactly. So I'm sure it was a very, very important time for you to gather all the experience to see exactly what's happening outside the United States and the rest of the world. And now you are back in California, actually, I Exactly, exactly. So going from the cold Nordics to the warm weather but I do miss a lot about Europe. So I will try to spend a couple of months there of the year and still have a lot of clients I work with, both in genome in Europe and in the US. So very nice to get that still, in both experiences. Yeah, it's nice to have to be able to choose from, I can live three months in Europe, I can live several months in the United States and really get the best thing out of both of the locations. So you started your company in 2013, by working for other firms, and you were the chief communications officer of a NASDAQ listed biotech company. And in 2013, you became your own boss, you started your own company. So how did you get there? What made you to start your own thing? I mean, it's a bold step into entrepreneurship, I would love to know how you transition was and why you did it. I think entrepreneurship sounds me. So I come from a family of entrepreneurs. And like I said, I was studying law at the time. So I was doing my undergrad. And the next step, obviously, was to go to law school. And I quickly realised that wasn't what I wanted to do. So you know, and being with my dad is actually an entrepreneur whom you're familiar with. And he was doing public relations and marketing. And he's worked for STEM to variety of tech startups and startups, in different areas. So he was actually working with another PR firm at the time, he contracted them to help him. And then I guess, you know, SPR world goes, it's up and down, you have some good firms, you have some firms that are maybe not, as you know, reliable in terms of what the, you know, deliverables. And I would say I've definitely come across a lot of firms that they over promise under deliver. And that's something that has been doing to help shape me and who I am professionally, and how I set expectations with my clients. So I initially started help trying to help him get publicity for his startup, and then start working for some other companies just trying to kind of get a feel for the industry. And something that I really did enjoy is helping you know, companies craft their narrative, craft their story, and just kind of, you know, get get their name out there and actually find the stories because that's something that's obviously a challenge as well, if you're not, if you want the big news to share, it's what do you share in the interim, what's gonna get you noticeable, and you can't just try to put a press release out about anything, you can't just pick any random stories, there has to be something. So I really love getting you know, deep in the, you know, in the in the weeds with companies and figuring out what that story. Yeah. So what are exactly your clients? What are their pain points? What is their story? And what desires? Are you satisfying? And what is exactly the benefit of working with you that so what is the single thing that you provide that is not any other company, not any other PR company or a social media company able to provide for that you can do? Absolutely. So I initially started working with my first client, obviously, we're very small startups in the US, but then I quickly transitioned over to working with a lot of European companies, especially those in Sweden. And I often found the culture in Sweden is quite different from how you market in the US. They're a very humble group of people, which is great in so many ways. But when you try to market yourself to the US, the US is all about, I'm the best. This is what I do. And I found that a lot of companies were really struggling with their messaging and honing in on what you know what their unique selling points were. So I initially started working with a lot of companies to help them get to that next level where they felt comfortable enough to you know, they still kept their humble roots, but yet, they were able to really vocalise what made them unique. So I was helping them craft this messaging, craft that story. And I initially sort of working as a client with the client as a Swedish American Chamber of Commerce. So I started being to work with them and a lot of companies that way, and really got a sense for the Swedish culture and helping, you know, bridge the gap between the US and Sweden, and companies looking to make that move and to help it you know, marketing to the US. So that was a really great, you know, moment in my career for me is learnt that learning experience was yeah, definitely unmatched. And it's been great for me to kind of propel, you know, my career forward. It's just meeting so many great people and understanding the way different markets work. So that's kind of how my journey took off from there in terms of being introduced to various companies and really networking in a way that I had opportunities that I wouldn't have previously had. So you mentioned how the different companies work across the different markets. So can you give us some best practices, why sort of what we need to pay attention to when we want to cultivate and grow brains over time, as sustainable sustainable across different country markets? Is there anything that we have to really look and focus on and pay attention to when we do so? Especially when it's up social media, of course and public right? Relations. Absolutely. So I think it's very important to know your audience know your different target audiences within the more general audience. For example, I work with a lot of life science and biotech companies. And just knowing how to market to scientists to identify with their needs to identify what content they actually find useful and interesting. I think a lot of companies make the mistake initially of wanting to be overly promotional. And it's not that they think that their product is so great that everybody needs to know about it. But it's more so that they get confused between advertising and content marketing and social media. So and just PR in general, I have a lot of, you know, companies have come to me, oh, you know, we want to market this specific product. Let's put out a press release about us. Why why now, why do you want a press release now? And why do you want to watch what's the news here, and especially in science, you need real data to back up what you're doing. And there's really no room for, you know, kind of controversy, and certainly no announcements that you'd like to make. So I really do think it's important to have, you know, your facts aligned to have your target audience identified. In order to make sure that you are crafting the right messaging, we, for example, we're biotech and life science, I find a big part of doing the right marketing is to finding other industry articles and finding news that you can relate to the work that you're doing. But maybe you're not directly talking about your company in your brand all the time. But you're relating what you're doing to other work being done in the industry and kind of showing that you're at the forefront of certain things happening, and able to, you know, identify with your target audience once again. So that to me is really important is figuring out what content will resonate without having to be promotional. And when it comes to content and local market, it is synthesis specific it is what is there to pay attention to that we rather than to localise instead of having standardised across all the different country markets. So I think that it's important. So there's one way of course, you want to have a consistent messaging, consistent marketing with your brand, but I do think it's important to look specifically for if you're marketing to Asia, that's one way to obviously market and content that will resonate with them. And if you're marketing tips, for example, Swedes, and you don't want to be overly promotional, and overly confident in what you're selling. But if you go to the US, and let's say you have a sales meeting, and somebody says like, Why should we hire you? Why should Why should your product, you know, why should we use your product, if you say, oh, you know, it's okay, that's not going to fly with a lot of, you know, companies in the US view, they want you to be very confident. And if you're confident they should be confident in you. And I found that that's something that a lot of companies struggle with, not only in Sweden, but just in Europe in general. I can't generalise in that sense. But I get the feeling that a lot of Europeans are very humble. And I think that that's something that's very, you know, it's good in a lot of ways. But when it comes to trying to push your messaging and your brand, you need to find the nice healthy balance of staying true to yourself, but also making sure that you, you know, exude confidence. And that's something that I really promote. Beautiful. Exactly. And what are, let's say from your experience, the three common pitfalls businesses fall into when internationalising when trying to grow their brands across different country markets, is that something that came up in particular, let's say the main reasons that usually are the ones that companies fail on. So what I often see is, especially within biotech, specifically, is companies like is that the companies that are tend to be more humble, or that they have research that you're doing your stories that they can share that they haven't even thought about, or they don't feel confident enough to share it, even though all the data is there, they have everything ready to go. But they haven't communicated that to their shareholders. So that's where I really feel like it's more like I've come in and I've had helped him identify like, Okay, this is what's trending right now, in the industry, this is what we kind of need to jump on. And this is what you need to share. And that just doesn't go for biotech goes for a lot of different companies kind of trying to pinpoint what exactly is important versus what you think is important. And I find that a lot of business owners struggle with that, that, you know, they may prioritise one thing, but like realistically, what you should, why should you be prioritising? And because kind of understanding like in the news cycle for PR, for example, what makes sense to put out when, obviously, some things are out of your control, and you need to release certain news when you need to release it. But I do think that there's like an effect, you know, you do have to be effective. And when you release certain news, like from a time perspective, what makes the most sense and what's giving you get the most bang for your buck, shall we say? So that's one thing I really think is a big pitfall. Others like is it being overly promotional? They make it more about advertising rather than like real content that can be useful and valuable to your target audience. And I think the third one is just maybe being overly confident sometimes in your messaging. I think that people really appreciate a balance so I you know, you Haven't one hand like I talked about where you don't have enough confidence, and then you're overly confident. So I've seen definitely a mix of both. So I really like when there's a balance, where it's more educational, and you're educating your audience, rather than trying to push your product. So I rather kind of make user cases for why, you know, somebody should use the product for a client of mine. Rather than consistently just try to push out a product without any real data backing, why this is better than what else is being offered in the market. Yeah, it's all about educating, it's all about entertaining. And it's all about providing information to our clients, to our customers to our audiences. So now, let's break that down into different levels. So we talked about company brands, corporations that are global, that are doing business all around the world. And behind all of these companies are human beings, the leaders that make these companies, or these corporate brands thrive. So I'm talking now about all these individual personal brands that bring about the value that the companies become that strong. So in your opinion, what does an authentic personal brand mean? I think it's staying true to what you actually believe in. And I see a lot of, you know, individuals on social media kind of jumping on certain bandwagon like, Oh, this is trending right now. So I should pretend I care about this. But do you actually care about it? How much are you you know, living true to your word. And honestly, for myself, I feel like it's very important to support different causes. But I think that you should really stick to the ones that you actually care about, and that you're actually passionate about, because that that will reflect that will certainly shine through. And I think that a lot of you know, now there's so many people that post on social media these days are trying to build a brand for themselves, people can often they can see through, if you don't really care about something, if you're just making a scene, because you want to be a part of a movement. But you're not necessarily it's not something that really applies to your everyday life, or it's not something that you genuinely care about. So I say stick to the things that are actually important to you. And that's what you should take your time energy on, and showing that passion really dedicate, you know, you only have so much time in the day. So I really think that it's important to make sure that when you want to build your own brand, you stay true to who you are they true to you know, what really mean, what the values do. So I'm, in particular, when it comes to you being a personal brand, on one hand, being part of a corporation, on the other hand, having your own business. So how did living and working abroad change you? And how does that experience contribute to and influence you as a business owner? And ultimately, your personal brand? Your face of the company? Right? Absolutely, I think I've definitely become more self aware, and whether that's just with growth or living in different places, but definitely understanding kind of rereading the room a little a little more. I mean, I remember when I first came to Sweden, I was maybe overly extroverted for it, in some situations, just because I really wanted to fit in, I really wanted to, you know, network as much as I could. And that's, you know, sometimes you have to take a step back and say, What does this person's comfort level or from a cultural perspective, like, what do they deem acceptable. And, you know, especially in the beginning, when you first get to know somebody, and I came from a place, I was living in New York, and you know, you talk to anybody, you talk to strangers, you anywhere, it's acceptable. And I found that here, you know, I was really trying to, you know, it's, it's hard when you network, and you don't know anybody, and you're just trying to jump in a conversation. And sometimes I feel that, you know, as when you're trying to grow, especially in a market that you're not used to, you really have to understand, like, how it works, how relationship voting works. I mean, it's took me probably a year to get my first client in Sweden, and a lot of that was just through, you know, building relationships and making sure that we are comfortable with one another. Whereas in the US, you typically don't have that long lag time. And I know that I have definitely seen a change throughout the last 10 years. So I don't think that it's really the same as I was experienced. And it could also be because I was much younger, and I was inexperienced. So it helps a bit now that you know, I've grown in my career. But I do think those are things that you kind of struggle with, especially in the beginning. So since you have so much experience gathered in the last years in Europe, in the United States, do you have any best practice public relations and social media marketing branding at wise for businesses that start out? So I would say it's very important to establish a social presence early on. I think a lot of companies make the mistake of not prioritising it early and then they're seven years into the company and then oh my because we need to start social media right now. And so they've lost seven years worth of people, you know, building a following building traction and building content. You don't need to invest a tonne of front. I mean, of course, a lot of companies, especially if they're like in the healthcare sciences, or they don't have a lot they can say in the beginning, but there is, you know, definitely content that you can put out to gradually build your brand. So I think that companies, they often, you know, when they have PR, they're ready to share, but who's your audience, you know, you don't have an audience, if you haven't worked on building one, even if it's, you know, slow and steady. And then PR, I think a lot of companies, especially, you know, there's a lot of CEOs that they are very passionate about what they're doing. But they kind of overestimates, I guess, their PR, you know, news newsworthiness when it comes to just putting certain news out about the company or with what you're doing. And I think it's very important to be selective and set the realistic expectations, because if you go and drop 50 grand to hire a PR firm for someone's, you're going to be really upset, there's no return on investment. And I think a lot of companies get confused between PR and sales. Of course, naturally, PR will help your sales and your help raise your visibility and establish a stronger brand. But it doesn't exactly correlate to sales right away. So I think that that's something that shouldn't be understood when especially when you go to hire a PR firm, you should really get your goals down upfront. And a good PR firm will help you identify those goals and help you set realistic ones for yourself. So I think if you never you go to a firm that can promise yo, you're going to be the New York Times, we're going to get you this this and this, I would really you know, I would, I would think about that for a second because nobody can promise you any coverage unless it's sponsored. And I've had the honour to work with some really good firms as well. And I've definitely learned from those who I feel that have represented themselves honestly, and really do have the client's best interests in mind. So I think that's really, it's really great to see that I've seen a mix of both. So really important, especially for startups who are you know, really bootstrap for cash, it's important to make sure you're making the right decisions when needed, and not just wanting PR for the sake of wanting PR. So what would be some PR goals that you would suggest, for a startup to have in mind to set, I would say, I wouldn't go ahead and hire a PR firm off the bat, unless you have like a slew of news to share. You know, in the coming months, I would say that it's okay to try to, you know, gradually build, maybe you want to do some in house, or maybe you want to hire a contractor initially, I personally, I won't take companies on for just purely PR engagements. If I don't think that there's actually news to share there within the coming months, I don't think that it makes sense for my financial perspective to go ahead, that means that firms can range from a few $1,000 A month or $100,000 a month, it really depends on you know what you're looking for. But I've definitely seen a lot of startups that I've come across, make the mistake is they just want to get their name out there, but they don't really have anything to share. And that's gonna be pretty disappointing if you go ahead and do all this work, and then nothing comes up comes of it. And of course, there's never any guarantee and PR, but like working with a good firm, they will help you identify what you actually need and what you're looking for help you really make sure you're doing this for the right reasons. So I think that's really important. In the beginning, especially. And when it comes to social media marketing, are there any particular trends that are showing right now that you say, as a business that is starting out right now as an entrepreneur, or even solopreneur? That is a trend that you have to pick up in order to be able to compete in the market to show visibility to build brand awareness? Right? Well, I'm sure I'm the first first person to say this on your podcast, but Tiktok has massively exploded. You see people making full time careers in just the span of a short amount of time. Brands are really taking the Tick Tock that's not something that I personally have worked a lot with. But I've seen how it can just completely change your messaging for your target audience. And so you have a different way to connect with them. It's different. It's more relaxed content. It's not content that's too pushy, I would say that it's really important to you know, especially as companies as you're just kind of starting out and figuring what your different avenues are. There's definitely some social media platforms that aren't right for everybody. I would say Facebook is definitely more consumer, and a company like a biotech company, for example, you don't need to be extremely active on Facebook all the time. I would say choose your messaging, choose your strategy and LinkedIn, for example, very, still huge fan of LinkedIn. I think that you especially if you're on a budget, and you really need to determine where is your target audience, where are they interacting the most? And why should you be there and not just put content for the sake of putting content out you really need to make sure that there's reason behind putting your content out and that you know, people there's going to be value provided phrase for your audience. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Ariel. I have also a specific question comes to them and then Women Empowerment. Do you see from your experience? Because you are in the realm of companies that are innovating a lot high tech companies in the UK companies in the biotech sector in the pharmaceutical sector? Do you think that it is harder for women to speak up and own their voice in that particular industries? And if so, how can we as women, help empower each other and be our best self. I think that a lot, I mean, just speaking to my own experience, I've luckily been very fortunate, where I have surrounded myself and been in environments where I have felt very supported by both men and women in my career. So I'm more so feel that it can be very competitive. And whether you're a man or a woman, and fortunately, especially if you're growing your career, that's something that you're going to deal with certain people, they just don't want you to get ahead. They say they want to be a mentor, but they really don't want to be a mentor to an extent. So I would say when you do work in certain industries coming in and finding those solid people that you can go to for advice, finding actual mentors that want to help you, they want to see you succeed, and they want to help you grow, because not only will that be good for you, but it will reflect well on them. And just find people that you really trust and rely on. And I think just having that confidence, and it definitely takes time. I mean, I think nobody can ever be 100% there, you're always going to feel a little nervous, I think when you walk into a room and try to argue and make a statement about something or share your opinion. So I think that it's just a matter of being true to yourself, building that confidence, knowing your worth, and realising that everybody makes mistakes. And that's okay. So I think that you just need to kind of go with the flow, and you just need to continue to build who you are, and be comfortable with who you are, I think it's so important to get out of the comfort zone and making them comfortable in there. That's the only way to really go forward. Be courageous people and just do it and not waiting for about I'm good area, are you also willing to share any experience that you had, which was a major learning for you any detour that was significant, but it shaped you and it helped you to live your authentic self? Absolutely. I think there's been various experiences. I mean, I think especially I mean, naturally, you know, you come in, you're fresh out of school, you're you know, you want to build a name for yourself, especially when you're trying to start your own business, I would say I've had my last name situations where I've been very naive and met people that maybe didn't have my best interests in mind. And I found there's a lot of multilevel marketing scams that are out there, especially like I remember when I moved to Sweden, a couple people tried to pretend that they wanted to help me grow with PR or marketing Oh, here, let me teach you things. And really, it was a scam that they were trying to get me into especially being I didn't know the country, I didn't know the network. This is obviously not unique to Sweden, this is happening everywhere. So that's one thing that I feel you really have to be cautious of, and what's real marketing versus maybe was a Ponzi scheme that somebody's trying to get you involved with. And they also just feel that there isn't knowing who to trust, knowing who is going to be the right mentor for you, and who that you can who can you can really confide in. So I think that we're always going to have struggles, it's always going to be you know, a situation at work where you feel that maybe you didn't perform your best, you feel that, you know, you just didn't feel confident going into a certain meeting, you come out of it and think to yourself, like, you know, what did I say? Why did I say that? They're not gonna, you know, have confidence in me or think that I'm smart enough for this. And I think that, you know, like impostor syndrome, a lot of people, especially women do have that. And I really think that we need to kind of do better at you know, really bumping each other up in a genuine way. I think a lot of women's ill women supporting women, but all the times that maybe sometimes cannot be the case. And I think that it's really important for us to kind of separate socially, our personal lives, sometimes from our professional lives. And really just try to remember that people are struggling, you know, you don't have to get your motional II You know, your emotions involved with the workplace often. And if somebody's having a bad day that you come across, you kind of have to remember like that maybe has nothing to do with me, it has to do something that they're dealing with at home. So you do have to remember that everybody has their professional and their personal lives, and not let that affect you so much because it's definitely something for me that I had to learn a lot throughout my career is that if maybe somebody's having a bad day, and they're writing, you know, an email that I find to be a bit aggressive, I don't know what's happening in their home life, and that some of you really need to kind of separate when you want to work and have a good relationship with others. Yeah, that's so true. I also have to have accountability groups I'm part of and it's so beautiful to meet regularly each week to help each other lift up and all So get this to self talk this destructive self talk out of your body and to have someone else tell you hate us. It's absolutely right, or just set it straight again, and give us another perception because we oversee things from our perspective, which is not very encouraging very often. So I think if you surround yourself with this like minded people who are basically in the same spot, or maybe a little bit further ahead, then it really helps you to be motivated to get inspired to continue your path and just not to give up exactly. And I think just being honest with people, I mean, if you're having a bad day, and do you feel that you may not be communicating to the best of your ability, because there's something that's hindering you from doing so. It's okay to be honest with people and just say, Listen, right now, I have a lot going on in my personal life, I'm trying, I'm trying to show up today, I'm trying to be the best student that I can. But if I seem a little off, you know, this may be why. So I think it's really important to be honest, and I've luckily had the honour to work with companies lately, especially clients that I feel that they really care about mental health, they really care about your well being. And that's something that I have worked in situations where they haven't cared about your mental health and well being. And there's really a difference, and you do want to go the extra mile for people who do care. So I think that it's important to surround yourself in cultures and environments that really do kind of match the, you know, the environment that you would like to be in. So a lot of that time is making sure you know, finding out what you what do you find important and what you value to make sure that you set yourself up for success. Yeah, and it's also really about trust. And it's those trusting you that you can do it. And that you also find yourself trusting in yourself, actually, you know, after test yourself, you have to believe in yourself in order to achieve something to get out of this comfort zone into this unknown. Because if you're not trusting yourself, if you're not believing in yourself, you can't do it. And yeah, thank you. So that's beautiful. You have to continue that. So, um, we are almost at the end area. I would love to do a very quick word wrap with you like one term and the short answer to it. Is that alright for you? Let's do it. Okay, then. Strong leadership. Um, valuable, valuable asset if you can lead well? Yeah, Sweden. Ah, princess cake. Anybody who's watching from Sweden will get this authenticity important. Tick tock, new social media trends. And brands. Also very important, building your brand. And I love everything that you've been doing and really appreciate you just learning from you, especially throughout these ones that have gotten to know you. Thank you for that. Thank you so much. Yeah, well, thanks. I appreciate that, too. So that can listeners find you if they want to get in touch? Please find me on LinkedIn. I have a Twitter presence as well. I'm not as active so please feel free to connect with me. Ariel Kramer, on LinkedIn. And my company is K L O V E R communications.com. So you can find me on LinkedIn that way making sure you have the right arrow Kramer the right company, not too many redheads out there arrow Kramer so I should be pretty easily identifiable. Wonderful. Thank you, Ariel. And thanks for being on my show today. It was really a pleasure having you here about Yeah, to learn about your personal branding journey and how you help businesses and empower innovative companies, businesses, public relations and social media marketing. Thank you, Ariel, thank you so much for that. Have a great day. And that was my conversation with Ariel Kramer. If you like my show, follow brands talk on your preferred app, share it on social media. And if you find them minute or two, leave a quick rating or review. Thank you so much. If you want to learn more about me and my services, head over to Richard brands.com and get inspired. If you need support in becoming a strong and truly authentic brand. drop me an email. I'd love to be your guide on your hero's journey. I hope you will stay tuned in on the next episode when we dive into the world of threat